Literally no evidence

I love the smell of ignorance in the morning!

Good news, everyone! According a prolific commenter from r/MensRights, there is “literally no evidence supporting the idea that women had it any worse than the common man.”

My favorite part of this statement, besides it’s hostility towards women, is that it is factually untrue. I feel that Fatalistic may have missed a few history lessons, so I’ll clear a few things up. All of this info is found with just a few minutes of Googling, and some of it’s direct quotes from Wikipedia.

  • Women didn’t receive the right to vote in the United States until the Nineteenth Amendment passed in 1920. For those of you who are bad at math, that was 91 years ago. There are still plenty of people living who were born before then.
  • It’s still illegal for women in Saudi Arabia to drive.
  • “Bride abduction” by kidnapping and rape is still being practiced in Kyrgyzstan,  Rwanda, Ethopia, Kenya, Kazakhstan Uzbekistan and is on the rise in Georgia, Azerbaijan and in the Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia regions.
  • Sexual slavery under the guise of “ritual servitude” is still practiced in Ghana, Benin, and Togo. There, young girls are sent to work as slaves for priests as payment for a family member’s misdeeds.
  • In ancient Greece, women weren’t even considered to be people.
  • During the middle ages all property which a wife held at the time of a marriage became a possession of her husband.
  • An estimated 500,000 women were raped during the 1994 Rwandan Genocide. Of course, men and women were killed during the Rwandan Genocide, but this refers to the number of women raped specifically by enemy forces as a weapon of war.
  • Sati wasn’t banned in India until 1829.
  • Deaths from childbirth fever could kill around 27% of women giving birth – this does not include the number of women who died from childbirth, but from puerperal fever.
  • Over 90 million women and girls are estimated to be “missing” from the expected population in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, China, India, Pakistan, South Korea and Taiwan alone due to sex-selective abortion and female infanticide.
  • It wasn’t until the 1870s that courts in the United States stopped recognizing the common-law principle that a husband had the right to “physically chastise an errant wife”. In the UK the traditional right of a husband to inflict moderate corporal punishment on his wife in order to keep her “within the bounds of duty” was removed in 1891.
  • Foot-binding was practiced in China for nearly a thousand years.
  • Acid attacks are on the rise, and 80% of victims are women.
  • The number of women and girls that are the victims of honor killings is hard to estimate, but The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates that perhaps as many as 5,000 women and girls a year are killed by members of their own families. Many women’s groups in the Middle East and Southwest Asia suspect the victims are at least four times more.
  • Amnesty International estimates that 135 million women worldwide have experienced some form of Female genital mutilation. In some countries, nearly 100% of girls undergo female genital mutilation.
  • Women in India today develop kidney and liver problems because they do not have access to toilets.
  • According to the World Health Organization  (WHO), an estimated 50,000 to 100,000 women develop obstetric fistulas each year and over two million women currently live with obstetric fistula.
  • In 2002, the US Department of State repeated an earlier CIA  estimate that each year, about 50,000 women and children are brought against their will to the United States for sexual exploitation. For the last decade it has been estimated that 6,000 – 7,000 girls are trafficked out of Nepal each year. But these numbers have recently risen substantially. Current numbers for girls trafficked out of the country are now 10,000 to 15,000 yearly.
  • Around 200,000 women from Korea, Japan, China and the Philippines were forced into sexual slavery during World War II, the so-called “comfort-women.”
  • During the Victorian Era, women’s legal rights were comparable to the rights of children. They could not hold a job unless it was that of a teacher, nor were they allowed to have their own checking accounts or savings accounts. Women could not refuse sex with their husbands, and could be beaten if they tried.

Is that enough? I only stopped here because I actually got tired of making this list. Please add your additions to the list in the comments section.

I can already hear the flawed arguments coming my way, and I’ll just cut off a few at the pass -

  • “But, but but WAR! Men did most of the fighting.” Yes, and that’s disgusting. Women were often the “spoils of war” and just to make sure you weren’t missing anything, women. were. not. considered. people. until fairly recently in many places. In some, they still aren’t.
  • “But what about the menz?” Yes, my dear friend and concerned commenter, men are raped too, and men are mistreated too, saying something happens to women differently, or even more, doesn’t dismiss the experience of the men it also happens to.
  • “Well, even if women weren’t human beings, and they weren’t allowed to work outside the home, someone had to be taking care of them, amirite?! They were probably just sitting on their fat asses eating bonbons throughout history.” Yeah, no. Two words: domestic sphere. While women usually weren’t working outside the home, they were doing plenty of work at home.

Coming up soon – my least favorite new vocabulary word: “mangina.”
UPDATE: See Fatalistic’s response here!

About Kita

Kita enjoys long talks about gender roles, terrible action movies, and jellybeans.
This entry was posted in Feminism, Men's Rights, Reddit. Bookmark the permalink.

8 Responses to Literally no evidence

  1. Asquared says:

    These blatant denials of history make me rage.

    Sure, common men had it a lot worse than, say, noblewomen. But noblemen were still considered a class above noblewomen. Common men, similarly, were still seen as superior to common women. While the elites had it better than the commonfolk, the male elites had it better than everyone else.

    If women were never treated worse than men, then why were men given the right to vote before women in almost every European/ North American nation? I suppose the suffragettes were just being uppity.

    And yes, women didn’t go to war. Because they weren’t allowed to. It’s disgusting, I agree. And it’s unfair to both sexes. It’s also in no way indicative of female privilege. Quite the contrary.

    If women were never treated as second-class citizens, why were they not even considered persons until at least the nineteenth century in many nations? For example, women weren’t officially considered persons in Canada until 1929. This is not ancient history, for God’s sake.

  2. Jay Hammers says:

    “If women were never treated worse than men, then why were men given the right to vote before women in almost every European/ North American nation? I suppose the suffragettes were just being uppity.”

    Because men fought to defend the country, and women did not.

    Meanwhile, suffragettes and their ilk participated in the white feather campaign to shame men to go to war.

    Perhaps suffragettes should have been spending their time campaigning for women to go to war rather than campaigning for the right to vote without the responsibility to defend the country.

    Black men earned the right to vote by fighting in war. Women didn’t earn anything – it was handed to them.

    “And yes, women didn’t go to war. Because they weren’t allowed to.”

    Oh, please. Weren’t allowed?

    Feminists turn women’s privilege into “oppression”.

    Let me know when feminists campaign for women’s draft.

    We all know feminism has always been about privileges for women at the expense of men, without any of the responsibilities men have.

    • Dee says:

      You are historically inaccurate in a number of ways.

      First: Black men didn’t “earn” the right to vote due to fighting in any of the numerous wars, from the war of independence, all the way up to the civil war.

      Second: Women were not allowed to go to war. They did, no one knows how many, and if they were caught, they were shipped back home. So, two of your points are inaccurate, both in stating that women did not fight (they did), and that they were allowed to go to war.

      Third: Many feminists do campaign for women’s selective service. It’s not a draft, currently. A draft is when they actively call people up.

      Fourth: You ignored the fact that many women were involved in nursing and taking care of homes, farms, and industry in many of those wars.

      Privilege is not a zero sum game. You’ll still be able to be male if women are suddenly treated as equal. You won’t lose anything except for your sense of persecution.

  3. Shattershift says:

    As a participant in r/mensrights, I can say that getting these sorts of things out into the open is a good thing for the subreddit, and that the men’s rights movement is not a consenting vehicle for misogyny or the denial of history. Exposure of these sorts of flaws in the bodies both feminism or men’s rights is a good thing, and is of benefit to both sides.

  4. Well written, of course!

    On the subject of war and its heinous wages it is worth mentioning that while men did the soldiering (due to sexist ideas about who was fit enough to serve), in the places where wars actually occurred they were definitely not the only ones doing the dying. In Vietnam, for example, women were raped and slaughtered by soldiers in great numbers, and some were also combatants for the Viet Cong, turning women and girls into targets for American soldiers. The rape of women in wartime, the battle for their bodies and the symbolism they are invested with by patriarchal states, is an often unregarded tragedy.

    The ironic thing about the ahistorical nature of Jay Hammer’s comment is that mosts feminists had, historically, been antiwar. International Women’s Day is on March 8th to commemorate a 1913 march against war that women from all over Europe participated in. The people most interested in “shaming” men into going to war were the men who were military officers and Defence/War ministry officials, the men who were parliamentarians and congressmen, the men who were Presidents, Kings, and Prime Ministers, and the powerful men in the popular press who cheerled war at every opportunity (see William Randolph Hearst for a particularly well known example).

    This is not to say women were not a part of this process, but their actual *power* was much more limited. The people with the actual ability to start wars and gin up public propaganda campaigns were almost always men. To the extent that women were valorised in that carnival of warmongering we were portrayed as passive objects to be rescued by great noble men- always already in peril and unable to save ourselves.

  5. Anonymous says:

    I agree with you for the most part, but you seemed to lose your basic point; you were arguing that it was worse for women. You were not meant to be arguing that bad things happen to women, you were saying that more bad things happen to women than men. This post would have been a lot more valuable if instead of saying “x bad thing happened to women” you instead said “x bad thing happened to women y times more than men”. For example, most people I know assume that women have never been able to vote and men have always been able to, but it’s not quite so simple.

  6. Kita says:

    I feel doubtful that zie will come comment here, so I’ll post Fatalistic’s response in full here –

    Women didn’t receive the right to vote in the United States until the Nineteenth Amendment passed in 1920. For those of you who are bad at math, that was 91 years ago. There are still plenty of people living who were born before then.

    That’s great, but men who weren’t part of the aristocratic elite didn’t receive their vote until a bit earlier than that time, and, get this; It came at a price.

    How many men died in the two World Wars? How many of those really wanted to fight? How many were forced to. That is the price their vote came at. Isn’t that something.

    It’s still illegal for women in Saudi Arabia to drive. “Bride abduction” by kidnapping and rape is still being practiced in Kyrgyzstan, Rwanda, Ethopia, Kenya, Kazakhstan Uzbekistan and is on the rise in Georgia, Azerbaijan and in the Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia regions. Sexual slavery under the guise of “ritual servitude” is still practiced in Ghana, Benin, and Togo. There, * In ancient Greece, women weren’t even considered to be people.

    I like how third world problems become justification for the ill-treatment of men in first world countries. I also greatly enjoy how the suffering of common men in these countries is downplayed or simply swept under the rug when you talk about third world atrocities– because you’re framing it to make it seem like only women suffer by only presenting one half of the story. Very feminist of you.

    Sexual slavery under the guise of “ritual servitude” is still practiced in Ghana, Benin, and Togo. There, * In ancient Greece, women weren’t even considered to be people.

    Literal slavery was practiced… you know what, fuck you. More of this of this half-truth framing. This goes on I can see by reading this “list” of yours.

    An estimated 500,000 women were raped during the 1994 Rwandan Genocide. Of course, men and women were killed during the Rwandan Genocide, but this refers to the number of women raped specifically by enemy forces as a weapon of war.

    Yes and how many more men were killed. This framing of events thing you do. Isn’t that something. Rape is also worse than murder to you. Well, murder of men anyway. Those subhumans, them.

    Deaths from childbirth fever could kill around 27% of women giving birth – this does not include the number of women who died from childbirth, but from puerperal fever.

    Biological functions causing death? This means I’m oppressed by men. You heard it here.

    Over 90 million women and girls are estimated to be “missing” from the expected population in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, China, India, Pakistan, South Korea and Taiwan alone due to sex-selective abortion and female infanticide.

    As opposed to the… how many millions in first world countries of either sex. Who wanted abortion rights the most in the first place? Feminists? You got what you wanted, didn’t you? What does this even have to do with the treatment of women, anyway. Abortion is abortion.

    It wasn’t until the 1870s that courts in the United States stopped recognizing the common-law principle that a husband had the right to “physically chastise an errant wife”. In the UK the traditional right of a husband to inflict moderate corporal punishment on his wife in order to keep her “within the bounds of duty” was removed in 1891.

    Yes and now what do we have: Lawyers who routinely advise women to fabricate false accusations and the women who are morally bankrupt enough to take that advice. “Primary Aggressor” policies for “those niggers” (men). Compound this with the lies feminists have cooked up about domestic violence by again, hiding half of the story and demonizing men for the past four decades, and…

    Well, you have the legal situation for men today.

    Foot-binding was practiced in China for nearly a thousand years.

    Some dudes hang heavy rocks from their dicks in some cultures. I guess that’s oppression too.

    Amnesty International estimates that 135 million women worldwide have experienced some form of Female genital mutilation. In some countries, nearly 100% of girls undergo female genital mutilation.

    I estimate at least twice that many men have in first world countries alone. You can quote me on this. Oh right, that’s normalized in our “civilized” culture, so it doesn’t count. Here’s the thing: It’s normalized in their cultures, too. Again though this is a case of only presenting half of the facts from you.

    Not only that but you probably don’t know the first thing about the different types of genital mutilation and are placing all of them into the “worst type” (infibulation) bag. It’s expected though. You’re a propagandist. I get it.

    Women in India today develop kidney and liver problems because they do not have access to toilets.

    Yes, a large portion of India is rather poor. You’re saying that men also don’t…? I guess they don’t count, though. They’re the oppressor. Every last one of them. They deserve it, right? Right.

    According to the World Health Organization (WHO), an estimated 50,000 to 100,000 women develop obstetric fistulas each year and over two million women currently live with obstetric fistula.

    Women-specific healthcare and research is funded many times that of male-specific healthcare and research. Thought I’d let you know that with your little tangent here.

    Around 200,000 women from Korea, Japan, China and the Philippines were forced into sexual slavery during World War II, the so-called “comfort-women.”

    Cool. How many civilian men murdered again? Rape is worse than murder though, in the feminist orthodoxy. Another case of “half the story.”

    During the Victorian Era, women’s legal rights were comparable to the rights of children. They could not hold a job unless it was that of a teacher, nor were they allowed to have their own checking accounts or savings accounts. Women could not refuse sex with their husbands, and could be beaten if they tried.

    I’m also pretty sure there was a flipside to this where women were considered literal children legally and thus their husbands were punished for their crimes because they simply couldn’t be held accountable. It’s similar to now really where simply being a woman means even for the most heinous of offenses the chance of being let off with a slap on the wrist is very high.

    Is that enough? …

    It really isn’t.

    “But, but but WAR! Men did most of the fighting.” Yes, and that’s disgusting. Women were often the “spoils of war” and just to make sure you weren’t missing anything, women. were. not. considered. people. until fairly recently in many places. In some, they still aren’t.

    More like they chose the victor… but I get it: Feminism — The Radical Notion That Women Are People. Slogans are cute. Especially when they’re grounded in complete and utter bullshit like the whole “Women didn’t have the vote!” piece of propaganda which I already laid bare.

    “But what about the men?” Yes, my dear friend and concerned commenter, men are raped too, and men are mistreated too, saying something happens to women differently, or even more, doesn’t dismiss the experience of the men it also happens to.

    It dispels your myths that women had it or have it worse than the common man? They don’t and didn’t. That was the entire point of all of this shit you said. Thus, all of these words you typed out were built on a house of cards. Zoinks!

    “Well, even if women weren’t human beings, and they weren’t allowed to work outside the home, someone had to be taking care of them, amirite?! They were probably just sitting on their fat asses eating bonbons throughout history.” Yeah, no. Two words: domestic sphere. While women usually weren’t working outside the home, they were doing plenty of work at home.

    Yes. Women weren’t human beings. Of course. Feminists love this piece of cant. Unfortunately, not true. Men are and have been the ones considered disposable– seen as less valuable.

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